MHM Forum

Here is the transcription of the Virtual Conference held on the 13th of december:

<jmarcf> hello everybody
<ChristineBE> Christine and Mathias are on line for Belgium!
<AnnaPixel> Anna and Andrea from Pixel are here, ciao everyone!
<David> Hi Everyone
<josephBe> Hello everybody !
<MariaGER> Hi, everybody, Maria is here for Germany!
<jmarcf> hello Anna, did Patrick send the documents to you? 
<tommasoisuc> hi everybody from Tommaso. in a few minutes should be connected with my pc and my nickname some students of the school of Perugia involved. I'll inform you as soon as they arrive
<AndreaPixel> Hi to everybody from Andrea
<ilse> Hi everybody from Ilse
<AndreaPixel> All nations represented! Thank you.
<jmarcf> ok I'll begin I just would prefer to wait for Frederic and Marika
<cecoslovacchia> Hello
<sadzia_PL> What do You think about the sentences in Nuremberg Trial? The polish opinion is that they were not fair and justified
<sadzia_PL> how does it look in your countries/sources?
<orzeu_PL> hello
<David> Why not fair or justified?
<jmarcf> so we may open I remember we have to talk about the original sources
<sadzia_PL> it was an official statement of the Russian propaganda
<sadzia_PL> which was at that time obligatory in PL
<sadzia_PL> and the sources show it
<AndreaPixel> Let France start each discussion according to the suggested agenda
<MariaGER> What should have been the Polish alternative?
<sadzia_PL> we were under the occupation
<sadzia_PL> this time - Russian one
<Anonymous> hello
<ChristineBE> Please, we would answer the first question
<frezziITA> somebody should lead this discussion. Which event are we discussing now?
<AndreaPixel> Yes now concentrate on the issue proposed by Jean Marc
<jmarcf> I remember the first question : how was explained the landing  minimised or serious operations
<David> The question itself can be interpreted in different ways
<ChristineBE> In Belgium, the press was under German control at the time of the Landing...
<orzeu_PL> according to our sources D-Day was presented as a final stage of a war
<jmarcf> and what the original Belgian sources?
<David> From the British perspective it was about halting the Nazi oppression, and defending threats to our coastline
<josephBe> In the Belgian press controlled by the German forces of occupation, the D-Day est explained with many details. They show the importance of the anglo-american engagement, probably to show after it how it has failed. I've been surprised because the official version has always said that Germans have minimized the event, but it's not like this in my sources... 
<jmarcf> and in Germany?
<jmarcf> and in Italy
<orzeu_PL> our PL press reflected the opinion of the Russians
<jmarcf> could us tell us more in pl?
<orzeu_PL> dday was presented as the most important element of the final stage of a war
<orzeu_PL> Russia and FR and EN were presented as a cooperating 'partners'
<ChristineBE> final stage: as a defeat or a victory?
<orzeu_PL> a victory
<orzeu_PL> ethusiastic victory
<jmarcf> and inItaly or Germany?
<orzeu_PL> the Polish people were waiting for the end of the war
<ChristineBE>  victory for the Allies? 
<David> Likewise in England, although the press viewed events very much from an Anglo-American perspective
<orzeu_PL> so the impressions were common the PL press
<ilse> in the moment we only found pictures from the view of the Americans - it is clear that 'D-Day is seen as a hard work of fighting for the end of Nazi terrorism
<cecoslovacchia> Even in Italy we were waiting for the end of the war, but we would like to know what the occupied France press said about the landing.
<ilse> In Germany we had no free press at that time, you know it was forbidden to hear radio of the "enemy" but a lot of people were happy about that landing
<MariaGER> In Germany there were both opinions by the people, it belonged to the attitude Nazi or not. The sources are British, Daily Telegraph. That´s interesting. Also many publications are still today from England.
orzeu_PL> one more remark - actually we didn't have an official press
<jmarcf> In France the landing was presented like serious but the German armies was presented as sure to win sure to be
<orzeu_PL> our sources are from PL newspapers which published in Moscow and London
<MariaGER> And the photos are all American.
<jmarcf> at the beginning the Normandy landing was considered as a diversion
<josephBe> in Belgium, it has been difficult to find sources from the free press. Naturally, in this one, the prespective was on the other side, presenting the anglo-american forces as the heroes that were coming in Normandy to liberate Europe from the Nazis.
<David> It is worth being aware that in England, although we had a 'free' press, they were heavily censored
<orzeu_PL> so, the same in \pl
<jmarcf> not to mobilise the resistance there was  very few information in France
<mark> the press tended to report what the government wanted them to
<orzeu_PL> so, we seem to agree on that aspect
<jmarcf> I think we should begin the second question about united Europe against bolchevism?
<tommasoisuc> ok
<fredFR> It was heavily used by the Vichy propaganda
<MariaGER> Which time do you mean?
<fredFR> the Anglo American were considered as Soviet allies
<MariaGER> When was it clear, that invasion was successful and changing Europe?
<fredFR> after the liberation of Paris
<Anonymous> we agree with you fred
<fredFR> thanks
<David> I would also agree
<fredFR> what about England - was the idea of the second "front" exploited ?
<orzeu_PL> according to the sources or rather - a Moscow press - there were no information on that
<MariaGER> In Germany USA, GB and SU were seen als Allies
<orzeu_PL> it was said - Bolchevism will free the united Europe
<David> Initially in England yes
<cecoslovacchia> In Italy we thought more of the conquest but as an axis with Germany and Japan. There was no concept of united Europe
<cecoslovacchia2> Anglo Americans were allied with Russian just to defeat nazi, but after there were not any more allies
<David> although there was a great deal of suspicion of communism
<josephBe> I've been also surprised by this theme. During the war, the Germans have tried to create a coalition against the communism and its servants from London and New-york.  This theme appears in quite all the sources from occupied Belgium. It has been a pity for me to discover that the European idea has been used to justify the war and the occupation.
<David> which , of course, later hardened to outright distrust and dislike
<orzeu_PL> regarding the allies
<fredFR> During the war, the alliance of Anglo American and Soviet were totally put forward - highlighted   
<orzeu_PL> anglo americans were still allies with GB and Russia
<fredFR> Moreover, the Communist resistance was very active
<orzeu_PL> remember about Poczdam, Yalta, Teheran
<David> Stalin was portrayed as 'Uncle Joe' in the British press
<tommasoisuc> the nazis intention was to move all Europe against the anglo american invasions
<orzeu_PL> but not in Polish opinion
<fredFR> In france, the very idea to gather against Bolchevism was a complete failure
<cecoslovacchia> In Italy the antifascist forces thought of what would become EU. They wrote a "manifesto" at Ventotene about this subject.
<josephBe> Strange when you remember that Churchill sent troops in Russia in 1917 to fight against communists...
<fredFR> The first objective was first and foremost to shatter Nazism
<MariaGER>  German communists were prepared in Moskau
<David> but beneath the apparent friendliness between Br and R there was still considerable distrust

<Ospite572854438> there was no strong communist movement in Britain
<jmarcf> It was an objective alliance but not a community of ideal
<fredFR> what about the 4th point now ?
<orzeu_PL> so, regarding the 4th point
<David> In '45 the greater threat to Britain came from the Nazis, the V1 bombs were falling on London, flown largely from the Pas de Calais area.  Anyone who helped destroy the Nazi threat would be an ally
<jmarcf> The ne how were the cities destruction  presented
<fredFR> The press which under Vichy's control presented the destruction of the cities as a way of war - kind of terrorism
<orzeu_PL> but we are talking about '44
<Anonymous> Tryin to get the nick. In the meantime: I'm Michael from Germany
<jmarcf> That were us and gb bombing
<fredFR> It was in June 1944 - The city of CAEN (Normandy) was completely shattered - destroyed
<David> In England as necessary destruction, even celebration, as it signified the ongoing defeat of the Nazis
<tommasoisuc> hi david where do you came from?
<David> I think the British were hardened to images of destruction
<orzeu_PL> from the PL point of view - there were only some information considering the Polish impact in DDay
<David> therefore seeing images of the destruction of cities in France was little different
<ChristineBE> David, where are you coming from?
<josephBe> The Belgian press under German control speaks about the civilian losses. The germants want to say to the Belgian people that the landing is not a hope of liberation, but the beginning of new damages.
<josephBe> The Belgian press under German control speaks about the civilian losses. The germants want to say to the Belgian people that the landing is not a hope of liberation, but the beginning of new damages.
<David> It is only now in more recent years that we are rethinking our approach to the destruction of the cities, especially Dresden
<josephBe> Naturally, the free press considers the civilian losses as "collateral damages",
<jmarcf> And now several years later is the point of view always the same?
<Fred> the propaganda insisted upon the destruction of Europe and not on Liberation
<tommasoisuc> no isn't the same
<David> One of our UK websites questions whether Churchill was a Hero or Villain with regards to the city bombing in Europe, but that certainly was not questioned at the time.
<tommasoisuc> have you ever heard MI17?
<orzeu_PL> you can't compare these 2 issues
<David> Many sources now question whether such bombing was necessary
<orzeu_PL> liberalisation and destruction of Europe
<Ospite572854450> this is also an issue in the teaching of history in schools



<josephBe> Of course. i think that it should be interesting to review many ideas after 60 years of peace. It's time ...
<Fred> About the loss, the casualties, many things remained unsaid - but it was a necessary harm
<David> MI17 was the British Military Intelligence section
<Fred> There is a bigger resentment against Americans who were not precise enough in their bombing but this grudge was forgotten when the American GI's came with their image as liberators
<jmarcf> Perhaps could we begin the second part about Nuremberg and Eichman
<monaco> can we have another information about MI17?
<jmarcf> Have you found sources of trial centred on the Jewish Holocauste?
<MariaGER> after 60 years the connection between starting war and nazi regime and the consequenses of war is clear for most of the Germans and so thought  in history 
<tommasoisuc> we know that it was a special section of English intelligence which had to provide with selling important messages by animal. for example by pigeons
<David> There isn't much I know about MI17, only MI5 and 6 remain.  It was part of the Intelligence secretariat.
<David> they tried all sorts of interesting methods
<orzeu_PL> We have no knowledge about M..... 
<jmarcf> lets focus on the trials please
<Mike_DE> The station building of Krefeld wasn't destroyed because of misfired bombs - instead the north of the city was completely devastated - thanks to this slight miscalculation our beautiful station building still remains intact. ok --- the trials ...
Mike_DE> In Germany people were anxious that the trials would be just another demonstration of power of the war winners.
<David> In Britain the trials were viewed as a final justification for the losses of the previous years
<tommasoisuc> in fact, in America and England, there are monuments dedicated to the animals who lost theire lives in the war for this special missions
<orzeu_PL> In Poland we have the same opinion
<Mike_DE> which one, Poland?
<Fred> Was the extermination seen as an exception or was it globalised ain the contratinary system ?
<Mike_DE> rephrase the question, please
<orzeu_PL> We are speaking about the opinion regarding the trial in Nuremberg,  for us it was a final justification 
<Fred> about what ?
<orzeu_PL> for all losses has happened in Poland
<Fred> it was the same in  France for all the deported people
<tommasoisuc> so what do your press say about the akmadinejad'd sentences?
<sadzia_PL> you mean Jewish people
<orzeu_PL> you mean Polish?
<Fred> Their is a huge condemnation about revisionism



<Mike_DE> In the sources I read (local newspaper) you could also feel how relieved everybody was that somebody finally put an end to all the nazi injustice - although most of the atrocities were still unknown, of course
<sadzia_PL> our sources didn't share the same opinion like your press
<David> IN Britain the trials gained wide publicity, it was through the trials that much of the atrocities became known to a wider public
<sadzia_PL> there was information that some of the sentences were not always fair
<cecoslovacchia> What did the defence of the trialed people use to avoid the sentence?
<sadzia_PL> in PL press there were only 2 issues
<David> usually they claimed they were simply following orders
<Mike_DE> people here were upset about the fact that thousands of petty criminals were sentenced or executed, while the big bosses went undercover or left the country.
<Fred> What ABOUT Poland : Did the polish press insist upon the fate of Jewish people who were exterminated or were they counted as being the victims of Nazi?
<MariaGER> The wide publicity is also one part of the German view. Also in Eichmann trial
<NicolasBE> In Belgian press, the people saw the trials as necessary
<MariaGER> Eichmann trial showed the holocaust again and the discussions of the 60th, new joung generation started
<Fred> Same as in France
<David> Little attention was given to petty criminal, most, if not all, attention was given to the major players
<sadzia_PL> extermination of the jewish people were considered equal to the extermination of the slav
<Fred> Eichman trial was considere as the one of a Nazi whereas Nuremberg : a trial against Germany
<sadzia_PL> intresting
<sadzia_PL> could you tell us more..
<Fred> What about Poland ?
<Mike_DE> one of the major players, boss of the reichsbank, left as a free man - that was one of the major shocks for the German public. Was considered a great injustice.
<David> I thionk it was difficult for people in 1945/6 to see the Nazis and Germany separately
<MariaGER> "little nazis" could hide behind the famous nazis punished in Nuremberg
<Fred> in France, we didn't make any difference between a Nazi and a German, just after the war.
<NicolasBE> In belgium, some parts of the press consider the nurmeberg trial as the trial of nazi's germany
<cecoslovacchia> Hideger the filosofer of Nazism how did the prosecutors and the defense behave?
<David> I think that view only became apparent in the 1960s
<Fred> at the time of Eichman trial, the difference was made : Nazi and German was differientiated
<David> very much so
<NicolasBE> Same in Belgium
<tommasoisuc> in Italy too at that time germans and nazi were different
<frezziITA> Generally the trial in Italy is treated as a problem between Germans and the rest of Europe, noy involving Italian responsability non
<orzeu_PL> For us Nazi and Germany were understood the same
<cecoslovacchia> Even in Italy we were used to identify Germans and Nazis.
<jmarcf> longer than in other countries?
<Fred> until when ?
<ilse> last year we had in our theatre "The Eichmann Trial"- it shows to younger people the structure of a character who always wants to do his "duty". 
David> Does this try to show him in a sympathetic light?
<orzeu_PL> In Poland the reminiscences of Nazi are still alive
<frezziITA> The personal responsability of Eichmann is underlined by the press and other sources. Only some papers talk about "German" or "fascist" guilt
<ilse> no, in a very complicated structure. people could ask themselves how they will act in the situation. 
<Fred> Can you tell us more about it - when you evoke of reminiscences of Nazi in your country ?
<Anonymous> i'm sorry, but we have serious technical problems, the pc is always disconnecting from the chat, so we can't follow the discussion. bye bye everybody
<Fred> STILL nowadays - what kind of problems ?
<David> I would agree, although it is largely getting better
<cecoslovacchia2> In Italy when you think to Germans you still associate a little bit to nazi
<orzeu_PL> I am afraid that even the young generation is not loos of it
<David> Even in the 1990's and still quite recently the press evoke images of the war in their sports reporting
<Mike_DE> I'm not sure what you mean, Fred, but here in Germany we have begun to see films, books etc. that show that the words Nazi and murderer/criminal were not always synonyms.
<Fred> dId Germany judge some naziS ?
<David> it is almost part of the national psyche
<ChristineBE> What's the reaction of the press face with the defence's statements?
<David> Little or no sympathy in the UK, particularly as the news of the attrocities became known
<sadzia_PL> the same in PL
<Fred> tHE Press scarcely evoke the defence's statement since the defendants put forward the fact that they had to obey orders.
<ChristineBE> in the Belgian press, the reaction was a total incomprehension
<Ospite572854450> it was viewed as a vindication of the anti German feeling brought out during the war
<frezziITA> Italian press did not agree with the statements of the defence. But there are some differences between the sources
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<Fred> in France - the Germany Barbarity was underlined compared with the WWI
<jmarcf> How was Barbie's trial  presented in Germany
<cecoslovacchia2> Have we got information of the public reactions during the trial???
<ChristineBE> all defendants presents themselves as "simple performers" or "simple technicians"
<sadzia_PL> what do the GR press and Germans people thought about trials?
<frezziITA> some sources underline the actual danger of nazism, some others prefer to talk about the personality of Eichmann.
<NicolasBE> The defendants reject all responsabilities about the leaders, according to our press
<ChristineBE> Furthermore, the defendants don't stop to contradict each other,
<Fred> Did some Germans condemn other Germans ?
<frezziITA> It is interesting for us to see that German sources contain something like a self-criticism, that there isn't in Italian sources about Italian responsability in war
<frezziITA> In one of German sources you can find a very interesting picture in which nobody recognizes his guilt
<sadzia_PL> in PL sources there was one significant issue  - katyn
<Fred> In Italy, could you tell us if some Italians were sentenced as collaborating in crime against humanity"
<ChristineBE> yes we have seen the picture very symbolic
<David> Likewise in the UK, any elements of self-criticism only began to surface in the 1980s - Eg the link with the earlier discussion and the city bombing
<sadzia_PL> according to the Russian propaganda
<MariaGER> In Germany the Churches saw there responsibility after war
<frezziITA> nobody. As you can see in our contribution to the  forum, Benito Mussolini was killed a li
<cecoslovacchia2> Frezzi is right. No Italians were processed.
<sadzia_PL> and there were no responsibility among Russian
<sadzia_PL> i.e for katyn
<Mike_DE> In Germany, one columnist says that the Germans will always regret the fact that they were not able to judge over the nazi leaders themselves
<David> An interesting point Mike
<sadzia_PL> and now?
<frezziITA> We was saying that Mussolini died a short time after his arrest. So an Italian Nurnberg was avoided, as Churchill said
<cecoslovacchia2> The trial was more for the nazi and not for the nazi-fascies
<MariaGER> and there were groups like socialists and communists who understood themselves as antifascists
<frezziITA> This is true. In Italy there were a lot of people who fought very hardly against fascism, so they considered themselves as "winners"
<MariaGER> and there were two German states since 1949 with different official opinions
<cecoslovacchia2> these because of cold war
<Mike_DE> if july 20,1944 had been successful there would have been a trial presided by Germans - and "our national pride" (original quote) wouldn't have been damaged so much. 
<MariaGER> and also because of WWI and fighting for a parlamentarian or soviet republic of Germany
<David> that is interesting
<frezziITA> In Italy there is also a lack of interest, caused by the "mood" of the early Sixties: a feeling of optimism and the absence of a critical analysis of the past
<David> the 20th July plot has a lot of prominence in our coverage more recently, but I need to find some sources to back that up
<David> A good point Frezzi, likewise in the UK, although the 1970s brought more introspection and reflection
<ChristineBE>  other question of France?


<jmarcf> I think many questions have been approached in the present question  so we could end the chat
<ChristineBE> Belgium will leave soon
<David> Also UK
<MariaGER> Good bye from Germany
<David> Many thanks for the discussion, it has been most interesting
<frezziITA> ok, good bye from Italy
<ChristineBE> tanks to everybody
<Mike_DE> nice talking to you, dear colleagues.
<josephBe> See you later. It has been an interesting experience. Thanks and goodbye...
<Fred> Thanks for all - goodbye everybody
<ChristineBE> and bye bye from the belgian staff
<cecoslovacchia> Ok Cecoslovacchia is signing off...
<ilse> bye bye ....
<NicolasBE> Bye everybody. 
<jmarcf> Bye to everybody and thank you for your very active participation
<cecoslovacchia2> bye bye...greetings from orvieto
<David> Before I go,  Anna, is it possible to have a print out of the discussion?
<Mike_DE> print would be helpful, Anna.
<Mike_DE> copy and paste doesn't work with me.
<AnnaPixel> I will circulate the chat transcript to the project partners who can pass it on to everyone
<Mike_DE> kann Anna an dich schicken - sie hat deine Adresse.
<AnnaPixel> Thanks for taking part everyone
<David> Thanks Anna
<AnnaPixel> And thank you Jean Marc for moderating!